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In his late 20s, Gordo Byrn left a high-powered career in finance to go all-in on endurance training. By the age of 33, he had won the Ultraman World Championships.
Gordo is one of the most thoughtful voices in the world of endurance. He writes regularly on his two Substacks — Endurance Essentials and True Wealth. Both are well worth checking out.
We cover the “why” behind pursuing endurance training, what to do when training becomes compulsive, Gordo’s experience with over 100 training camps, how he ran his coaching business, and much more.
Watch on YouTube; listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Episode breakdown:
00:00 – introduction
00:18 – why is fitness worth pursuing?
05:04 – who should go all-in on training
07:27 – compulsion and the amateur athlete
12:51 – the cost of going fast
15:02 – motivation and the joy of the process
16:36 – from 50-minute 10k to 2.46 ironman marathon
20:26 – over 100 training camps: a lifestyle choice
22:43 – epic camp origins
25:10 – how to structure effective camps
26:58 – are you ready for a training camp?
30:38 – designing a life around endurance
37:23 – the importance of the big block
39:19 – a life of writing
41:39 – coaching and communicating through writing
43:43 – writing practice and publishing tips
45:57 – building an endurance audience
48:23 – endurance coaching as a business
50:44 – choosing the right coaching model
55:30 – curating attention in the digital age
57:57 – avoiding the trap of online dopamine
1:01:58 – anchoring your goals to your values
1:05:50 – integrity, openness, and recovery
1:07:40 – chasing an ironman record
Transcript
John (00:06.11)
My guest today is Gordo Byrn. Gordo, welcome to the show.
Gordo Byrn (00:10.04)
Thanks. Good to be here.
John (00:12.63)
So let's start with the why. Why is improved fitness even worth pursuing?
Gordo Byrn (00:22.85)
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, let's go even further back. Something I think a lot of people find is they lose confidence in their ability to improve their fitness. And so as a result of that lack of confidence, they figure it's not worth even trying because they think the task is too difficult. And that's a shame because a little bit
goes a long way in terms of health. And I think the primary benefit, the initial benefit of just getting moving is on our health. And I think that happens way before and with much less time commitment and energy commitment required than say trying to get ready to go really fast for a race. So I think it's a win-win.
proposition when you decide, hey, I want to get into shape, maybe I want to do a race. Regardless of that race outcome, it's a very positive thing for your health and the health benefits are significant. And that's also why I recommend people don't do monster events early in their athletic career. So I think, you know, things like trying to do a marathon.
thinking that it's going to help you get into shape or become healthier tends to backfire on people because ramping up quickly has a much higher injury risk. These huge events have long recovery periods after and you kind of get out of your groove and you lose your kind of do something every day mentality, which is a great thing to have. And that's where you're capturing most benefits for your life. So that's kind of like
preamble. Now the other thing is well why should I, why should anybody get into shape in a race sense, metabolic fitness, why is it worth it? It's worth it because a lot of the things that we are going to experience across middle age and by middle age say that kind of 35 to 65 range, I started noticing it around 45, a shift in the way my body
handled exercise, the amount I could do, and really just my overall energy levels. Now a lot of these shifts that happen can be mitigated with a focus on just simple endurance training, endurance and strength. And our life outside of training, so the rest of our life, the most the hours of our day that most of us are living in because we're not training like elite athletes.
and even elite athletes have a lot of time when they're not training, becomes much better and our overall energy levels go up. And that's something if someone's listening to this needs to pay attention to because you can get too wrapped up in athletic performance and as a result be tired all the time and you're failing to capture the best part of being an amateur athlete which is feeling better in all areas of your life. And I think that's something we need to watch.
Because if your program is becoming a source of unsustainable stress, you're going to feel it. You're going to feel tired all the time. You're to feel run down and it's not going to be giving you energy. It's going to be taking energy away. And that's so that's something you want. You want that program to be reducing overall stress and increasing overall energy. So I think that's the pay. That's the payoff, I think.
John (04:08.862)
So obviously there has been some times in your life Gordo, where you've really gone all in. So when you were training for the Ultraman World Championships at other times in your life as well, you went all in with your training. And there are other people out there listening now who are thinking, I have a window, I can commit, I can really go all into this. So how should people think about that trade-off? When is it worth it to really go all in with your training and to see how far you can push yourself athletically?
Gordo Byrn (04:42.966)
Yeah, that's interesting. So when you're young, you think going all in is about doing epic training. And that is part of it. Committing, doing a lot of hours. But that's actually the easiest part. The easiest part is kind of the fun bit, the epic sessions and the things that you really enjoy. The thing that attracted you to endurance sport. That is...
enjoyable. Now that if you have a performance mindset, some of the things are a little less fun and all in can mean getting past the habits that hold us back. So it might be something to do with recovery. We might have mental limiters. We might have types of sessions that are very good for our performance that we shy away from. And this is where a coach or a mentor
or simply a willingness to be willing to train against preference can be useful to us when we fully commit. And so for me in this latest iteration that I started in my 50s, all in meant, well, I was going to actually try to be really smart about it. And even if it was uncomfortable for me to hold myself back or to recover, I was going to embrace that and embrace what's required to get my best.
performance given where I am. Now that's related to a working athlete. All in can mean, well, I'm going to have to say no to some things in my schedule to create space so that I can do a program that doesn't blow my life up. Because I think many people think that if they could get and I'm guilty of this, too, they think if we can get rid of everything else in our life, our life's going to be better because we can focus more on our sport. Well, that's not really how it works.
Yeah, you might be able to do a little bit more on your sport, but having other things in your life, these other aspects of identity, so you can kind of switch that mind off. And when your body's not able to train, it's very important that you have something productive that you can do with your mind so that you can stay engaged. So you're not just sitting around thinking about not eating or not training or whatever you got. You're not just sort of wrecked just on the couch, like waiting for another chance to train.
So all in really is about creating this sustainable lifestyle. And that's what it's about, I think. So I think it's different. I think when we're young, we get too focused on the difficulty and the hard aspects of training. And we can be gripping our program a little too hard. You got to relax a bit and not be thinking about kind of just
these really, really hard sessions that you think in some way are going to make everything better in your life. Now, some of the hard sessions are necessary, but it's not necessary to be sort of gripped seven days a week.
John (07:46.998)
Wow. So many incredible themes there. I love this idea of creating space and really thinking about your overall lifestyle. And there's definitely an element of balance there. One thing I want to touch on is this idea of compulsion. we know that there are so many benefits to exercise. The health benefits, what it does to your mind, what it does to your identity. But we know there are some pitfalls as well. And one of them is compulsion.
So I wondering if you could elaborate on that Gordo and maybe talk through that potential pitfall.
Gordo Byrn (08:23.308)
Well, a lot of personality types that are attracted to endurance sport are pretty compulsive, obsessive personality types. So I think for many of us, what we are seeking to do is create a positive obsession in a sense. So something that we can really get into really
learn to master and it's going to consume a large part of our lives. And the balance is not having it consume all of our life and become a single identity for us. Because then if we get, if we sustain an injury or we have a bike crash or something, we're left with in effect nothing. There's no other aspect of our life. I think when we're young,
and we're in those early years of our career, that might be fine for a few years, but ultimately we're going to need to broaden that identity if we want to express, if we want to take it as far as we can take it. I think another thing is everybody, even somebody that's an elite now, will ultimately end up being an amateur athlete. So approaches that worked for us as we were young pros or aspiring pros will need to change.
as we become season pros and as we transition out of our elite career into our amateur career. And so I think that's another thing that's important. So the sustainability aspect of our overall approach to training and exercise. Now, for some people, when they're in that transition period, they find it easier to change sports because they're so wrapped up in this in their single sport that they kind of knew very well. They don't yet.
have a way to be chilled out with that. And so they go to another area, another type of sport where they can kind of be a bit of a beginner again. And I mean, I did that. I did mountain bike, cross country racing, learned, did some skiing, these types of things where we can kind of move laterally, free our mind a bit. And then if we want, we can come back to our sport, but we're coming back to it in a different way, older into masters competition. So that's another way to kind of do it.
But there is, if you want to be at a very high level, amateur or elite, there is a level of what I call the necessary obsession in that your life needs to be filtered. Your athletic life needs to be filtered very clearly on is this going to move me towards my goal or not. And it's a really simple filter. And I think that's attractive to people because there is a simplicity there.
When I was trying to win Ironman Canada, I would just filter everything through, this, you know, do I think this choice, this opportunity is going to make me faster for Ironman Canada? Yes or no? If it's no, it's like, well, that might have to wait till later. it's yes, okay, this makes sense to do it. And it simplifies the life. And I think a lot of people find that attractive. I think, know, with so many different choices, this, what would it be?
It would be a, well, it'd be a highly structured life. I was talking to my wife about it. You know, when I was, I was recently away in Italy and then I went to Finland and I'm in different places, but it's still swim, bike, run and weights most every, you know, every week. And so the structure of my week stays the same, but the venue is changing. And I think I enjoy that particular lifestyle. I think if someone wants the results, in other words, they think
that getting fast or racing fast or whatever their sport is, but they don't enjoy that lifestyle, they're not going to get particularly far because they're going to be up against people who really like the training aspect and get really into it. And then you'll just you'll be a quite a big disadvantage to them. And it's a lot of time. I mean, the time required to simply be healthy is, I don't know, a quarter or a fifth.
of what's required to be a top athlete. Now, additionally, more than the time, the energy required is even more. It'd be like 10%. So the energy that a top athlete puts into their sport is a lot. And there's a lot of physical energy and putting that much physical energy in reduces your mental energy and your creativity. So there is a real cost to that.
So what I say to people is make sure that that cost is worth it for you. In other words, it's going to cost you things in terms of you won't be able to do other stuff. And for me, it was totally worth it. I mean, I had this feeling early in my athletic career that I had finally found what I was born to do. So when I was that period, you mentioned Ultraman when I was training for Ultraman, it was like this is what I was born to do.
It was I just loved it. The training and the physical side of it and just being outside all day most days was really enjoyable for me. Not everybody's into that. Not everybody likes exercising all the time. And I think you'll one way to know that is particularly, you know, once the event is done or once the reward, the reward aspect is over, you stop winning. You know what happens?
So some elite, some of my friends who are champion athletes, once they're not winning, they kind of leave the lifestyle and they move to a completely different life. I've got other friends who just kind of kept going, but they kept going at a lower level because they really enjoyed the lifestyle. And that was what pulled me back in is I missed that for me, the triathlon lifestyle, which is the ability to do a lot of different things.
It's always interesting. There's always some part of your program that's going pretty well. You're never crushing it on all fronts, but with three different sports, there's usually something going well. And it's just enjoyable.
John (14:47.574)
Yeah, yeah. I think it's really interesting to hear how you think about your own motivations for these activities. So a lot of people out there are trying to chase a specific number or they're going after a specific time and it's very much tied to identity. And maybe that's somewhat the case with you. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. But it does seem like you also really enjoy the process and that's absolutely key. And it's been a part of your lifestyle now for 20, 30, 30 years.
So yeah, maybe, maybe let, yeah, let's talk about times. So yeah, what does that mean to you?
Gordo Byrn (15:19.918)
So let's talk about times. I was awful. I was awful when I started. I mean, was, mean, was slow, like mediocre at best. And what I learned from getting quite fast, and by fast, I just mean faster than I ever thought possible. And I'll put that into context for people. ran a 246 marathon off the bike.
246 marathon at the end of an Ironman. you know, a few, well, not a few, but let's say 10 years before that, my 10K time was 50 minutes, five zero. So I went from a five minute, holding five minute Ks to being, as an all out effort in a 10K race, to being able to run faster than four minute Ks off the bike in an Ironman.
And what I learned through that is that fast is all relative. And if you're not satisfied with where you are right now, getting faster, you won't be any more satisfied. So where do we get satisfaction from? Well, I got the satisfaction from knowing that I had done my best to prepare. And I think that is for me. So you're standing on the start line.
And it doesn't happen with every race because you don't get a clean shot at every race. But sometimes you're to get a clean shot at preparing for a race. You're going to be standing on the start line. And I had this actually a couple of months ago at Oceanside. night before, I realized that I was in great shape. I was about to do my first half Ironman in a long time. think, well, I hadn't raced Oceanside in about 14 years or something, 13 years maybe. And I was like, you know what? I might never come back to this race.
I might never get another opportunity to be fit and healthy and an opportunity to do this race. So I told myself a couple of things. I said, first off, you got to enjoy it. You've got to enjoy this day you have coming up, this event you have coming up. And these races that I do are long races. it's not, it's not really painful, like for me, it's not really painful for hours and hours and hours. It gets uncomfortable at the end. And so I said to myself, look,
Enjoy, try and enjoy the swim, enjoy the bike. And then yeah, the run's gonna be a little uncomfortable, but that's where you're gonna need a buckle down and put up a time you're gonna be happy with in case you don't get another shot at this. And that's kind of how it worked out for me. I got pretty cold on the swim, so I didn't necessarily enjoy the swim. Cramped up a bit, but after I warmed up on the bike, I was really enjoying it. Where I am now, I'm not strong enough to ride away from anybody anymore.
So you end up with this group of, I don't know, let's say there's sort of five to eight athletes that you're kind of bumping into on the bike, depending on what everybody's strengths are. And you actually, you know, I chatted to a couple of people. said, hi, I got a few names off of people and it was just really enjoyable. And then you get to the run and I wasn't really chatting anymore because I was running pretty hard. But you like seeing a few friends out there and it was great. And I think that is an important thing.
for people to kind of hold on to is make sure you're getting the enjoyment out of your sport. Now, if you're an elite, it's totally different. They're going so fast now that regardless of the distance, they're not going to be chatting with anybody because they're just at this completely different level. But I think for us who are doing it as amateurs, I think it's really important to keep the enjoyable aspects in both.
training and racing because if you're not enjoying it and you're not having fun, it's kind of like, well, you know, what's the point?
John (19:20.468)
Yeah, I'm so aligned with that way of thinking as well. So one thing I've written about on my blog is this idea of the three pillars of long term fitness, VO2 max, metabolic health with zone two power, as well as muscle mass. But if there's a fourth pillar or something that's trying to run through my work, it is that enjoyment. So I think if you want to hit a certain level of fitness, and then after that, it's all about just maximizing enjoyment.
So I can't tell you how much I agree with that Gordo. But I do wanna go more into this idea of fitness as a lifestyle. And one thing that's been very big for you is these training camps. So you've done more than a hundred training camps. You just got back from one, I think, was it last week or this week you just got back? Just got back. So why don't you tell us about your very first training camp? How did you get into training camps to begin with?
Gordo Byrn (20:06.668)
Well, actually, this is great. My first very big training camp. well, yeah, I'll tell you a story. So Scott Molina, he's an American guy, lives down in New Zealand. Mary Darren Baker. He won Ironman Hawaii in 1988 and he had over 100 pro victories. So very accomplished triathlete. And I ended up living in Christchurch.
New Zealand for a series of Southern summers. And Scott lived 5k away. Now I didn't know it at the time, but Scott was totally out of shape. And I was this kind of new guy in town, amateur, and he wanted to get back into shape. And I was trying to get into good enough shape to race elite. And we trained together and we hit it off. And so I used to turn up at his garage and then we'd go ride for five hours and I'd drop him off. He'd go pick up his kids from school.
And we had this idea, some of his fondest memories from his elite career were training camps that he did with different athletes. And athletes would come down to Christchurch because it's in the Southern Hemisphere and it would enable them to get a winter training camp in and we would train with him. So we came up with an idea, well, why don't we do a business where we do these really huge training camps and we call it Epic Camp. And it's still going, a friend of ours took it over from us.
So the first epic camp, think there was eight of us and it started from my garage and we just headed out and we did swim, bike, run all over the South Island and New Zealand. And I don't know if that one, we did a half Ironman in the middle of it, but we were sort of training big five to eight hours every day, informal time trials against each other, as well as these, try and build a race in occasionally and the camps would last between eight and 12 days and it was huge. And we would bring these
amateur athletes in that were trying to break through. So they were experienced athletes, but they were trying to become top amateurs. And what we would show them is through the camp is that they could do way more training than they thought. And we also showed them that they had the ability to go very fast when they thought they were very tired. And we would basically rewire their brains.
And then they would go back to racing with the confidence that they're not going to blow up. And even with an Ironman, they'd be like, well, this is really just one day. I know I had to deal with those guys back at Epic Camp for like eight days. This is a one day race. I'm just going to work through this bad patch. And they and they would have these breakthroughs because mentally they would be stronger. Or if you subscribe to the central governor theory of fatigue, we had rewired their brains to the point where they experienced fatigue.
differently. And so the brain would enable them to continue racing when they would normally kind of slow themselves down. And it just worked great. And so we started doing that. And then I would do these camps informally. I would sometimes train with my athletes in small camps. And then we would also do even things for working athletes. I would encourage them to do just a long weekend camp.
But really what we're trying to do is, you you park yourself somewhere where you can do a lot of bike riding and you just give yourself some bike overload for three days. Because one of the things that the amateur athlete is challenged with is volume. We are at a very big disadvantage to the elites who can get the volume because they effectively, most of them have all day to train. And so I would encourage them to schedule these
kind of short overload periods. And not do so much so that they had to rest a lot when they went back to their normal program. Basically just do some overload and then go back into your normal program and just keep rolling it. And you would just kind of pop, build yourself up over time. And it worked great. And so I really encourage people to do that. And then if you're a top amateur,
then you do, yeah, you do, you do these longer training camps, one or two weeks. But if you're doing it longer, if you're hitting it for more than about five days, you have to start thinking about putting in easy days and rest days because what you don't want to do is when you go away, everything's building up in your life that you haven't been dealing with. And so when you come back, if you're tired and then you get all this other stuff hitting you, you can really dip.
and you want to avoid that. And what I mean by that is if let's say you did a two week training camp and then you came back to your normal life and you had to do two rest weeks. Well, at the end of that four week period, you wouldn't have actually gained much because if you just stayed home, you would have probably had, you know, four decent weeks training with your normal rest and a four week block should be enough to move you forward. But two big weeks followed by two rest weeks probably didn't move you forward that much. It might move you forward mentally.
But through trial and error, you'll figure out the amount of overload. But for most of us, five days will kind of do it. So it's a five day block. And, you know, take that middle day is kind of a flex day. So it's really just a two, one, two. You got the weekends for traveling and it works great. And if you can do something like that, say every six weeks, you're going to find that you can build on it and it'll take the pressure off.
trying to squeeze extra volume in when you're in your normal life.
John (26:07.274)
Wow. And for the people out there who are thinking about going on their very first training camp, how do know when you're ready to do that?
Gordo Byrn (26:18.158)
Well, are you are you able to just consistently string weeks together? Are you able to train consistently on any plan? So, you know, put your basic week together. And I like just doing the same type of week, week in and week out. Why is that? So you don't need to negotiate with yourself. And if you keep your schedule constant, everybody connected to you in your life will learn your schedule.
And so there won't be any energy expended with the schedule part of it. And the energy can go into the training part and the recovering part. And I think that works great. So what the first thing I would do when I started working with somebody would be like, hey, let's just figure out what this week's going to be and what the slots are going to be. Now we might change the workout in the slot, depending on the type of time of year, but I really wanted to avoid moving the slots around all the time.
so that the athlete would then have to try and negotiate the schedule. Because the sorts of people I'm working with, if you can keep the blocks the same, they know. And it's just like, okay, I know I got this block, Gordo's going to tell me what to do and I'll just get it done. And it works really well. And so I think that is the key thing. The other thing is, have you done any longer sessions? How did you do on those longer sessions? I think that is an important thing. Although I must say,
We had people who would turn up at our training camps and on day one we would get to the top of one of these long climbs we have here in Boulder, Colorado. And they'd be like at the top of the climb. They've been going uphill the whole time. This is the longest ride I've done this year so far. And they got through Camp Fine. So that's another thing. So it's like who's going to be there? Am I going to have some people to train with at my level? I think that is that's that's a question worth worth asking.
Because I think if you you roll into a camp and there's nobody at your level, it might be much it might be a lot less fun. But it only takes two or three people at your level and you have a little small group. And that's normally what happens at most camps. Anyhow, it kind of it kind of groups up and the people figure out where the hierarchy is from a fitness and speed point of view. And everybody just trains together. And if it's organized appropriately, the camp host is going to be doing facilitating that
so people can make those connections and have people to enjoy the experience with. And I think that would be kind of it. But you know, the simplest thing to do is really just get two, well, anywhere from one to three friends and then just go somewhere and just do a camp for like a long weekend, a three or four day weekend. You don't need anybody to organize it. Just go someplace where the training, you know the training is going to be good and just base yourself out of it and just do it.
John (29:14.068)
Yeah, it's really exciting to hear you describing what it's like to do those camps. So I'm at the stage of my athletic career where I haven't done a camp yet, but just hearing you describe that, does sound like something I definitely want to explore.
John (29:29.332)
Yeah, awesome, awesome. Okay, so you've talked about this idea of a basic week and creating these blocks in your schedule. I feel like another theme of your work is this idea of creating space and finding more time. So maybe let's look at this through the lens of Christchurch and the fact that you were able to spend basically your entire summers there. How were you able to design a life that you were able to spend your summers training in Christchurch?
Gordo Byrn (29:57.162)
Okay, well first, actually that's kind of a neat story. And that might actually be in a sense my first camp. So I was working in finance in Hong Kong and I asked my boss if I could take the summer off because training in Hong Kong is kind of brutal. And he said, sure. So I took July and August off and I actually, did a race in California, did a half Ironman in California. And then I went to, came actually here to Boulder.
stayed up in the mountains and every day I'd pack my car up, drive down to the pool and just kind of do my training. And then when my training was done, I'd drive back up to the mountains and stay there. And it was a really simple life and I enjoyed it. So I wasn't a pro by any means and I didn't really understand how to train back then. And I wasn't doing ridiculous volume because I couldn't handle it, but I was doing a lot for an amateur.
And I just really enjoyed it. And so that showed me that the lifestyle was something I was going to enjoy. So I went back to Hong Kong, worked another couple of months, and then I was actually going to resign. But my dad said, no, no, don't resign. See if he'll give you a leave of absence because you might want to go back because everybody connected to me thought I was going to come to my senses and realize that I didn't like training as much as I thought I did. And that was actually really good advice.
So I took a leave of absence and that's I ended up I ended up I did a month in Queensland and then went over to Auckland and I kind of made my way down the country ended up in Christchurch where I had a buddy a guy called John Newsome who ran I am talk until recently they they they packed it in I think within the last couple weeks and he's a he's a coach now and so how did I figure out a way
kind of keep doing the lifestyle. Well, at first I just told myself I wasn't kind of doing it forever. I was doing it for a year. I was going to kind of see how how it went. And so I had athletes that asked me to coach. And so I had and I bought a house in New Zealand, which was actually really cheap at the time. So I had a cheap place to live. I had a small group of athletes, a dozen athletes, and I had
So was kind of stable in terms of my cost of living. And then I just focused on training. Then my finance side, I helped a friend do a startup. So I had a consulting gig as well. So I had some consulting income, coaching income, and a very low cost lifestyle. And I think the low cost lifestyle really helps if you're in a field such as trying to be a top amateur athlete.
or a pro that's not all that fast yet and trying to make a go of it. Now, even at my best, I never raced enough to kind of cover my expenses. So I think having something where you can make some cash coaching, consulting. I've got friends that are very high level athletes here in Boulder who still continue to work. So they have like regular jobs and they're still
competing and racing at a high level. But that's not necessarily the norm, but you got to figure out a way to make it work for yourself. And I think that's so, you know, for me, I was never, I started late. So I was probably doing my first elite race in my early thirties. So I approached it, you know, it wasn't really make or break for me. I was actually, I was happy racing amateur. I just got fast enough to the point where
it made sense for me to compete in the elite field because I was faster than all the amateurs. But I wasn't necessarily doing the elite racing in an attempt to make money. I mean, I made a little bit of prize money, but I was just doing the elite racing to help myself become the best I could be within this life that I created for myself.
John (34:15.734)
Okay, okay. So you're in New Zealand, you've bought this house, you're living a very low cost lifestyle, and you've essentially dedicated yourself to training at this point in your life. So I'm curious, what did this part of your life feel like? What was like the experience of going through this compared to that finance work that you'd been doing in Hong Kong?
Gordo Byrn (34:37.166)
Yeah, I mean, was great. You're sort of, I mean, it's not great all the time. I mean, you're out riding for five hours and it's raining and you're hot on you, that might be a little bit brutal. But it was great. I was doing what I wanted to do and I was doing and I was getting better at it. And I had great friends and the environment in New Zealand, my little athletic subculture, they were great people. And so it was just, it was really...
enjoyable. Now ultimately, so I hit that pretty hard for about five years. Ultimately, I was kind of like, you know, maybe, maybe be nice to, you know, have a girlfriend or something. And I think that, you know, you get this urge to kind of broaden your life. But for a period of time, I think you'll find there's a lot of people where their sport is kind of the main thing that they got going. And then ultimately, you're going to need to broaden that identity.
into other things. And I think for me, I was fortunate it kind of happened naturally. I met my wife actually here in Colorado. And that's part of the reason why I'm here. But that was that was later. I moved to New Zealand at the end of 2000 and I met my wife the summer of 2004. So I kind of had that. What would it be, say, yeah, four year period where I was.
I mean, training was definitely number one in my life and my my results showed it. mean, I was just like, you know, I was just not not like better every month, but definitely better, significantly better about every nine months, I'd say. I'm kind of taking myself up. One of the things about changing hemispheres is it makes it mentally easier.
to do a tremendous amount of work. And sports like triathlon and cycling and swimming reward effort and reward time. You get better, significantly better.
John (36:52.35)
Okay. Okay. Yeah, it sounds like, so it sounds like your, your early thirties in particular, which is like such a tremendously meaningful part of your life, Gordo, both in terms of building those training habits and then meeting your wife. So just, it just seems like that was, how do you reflect back on that? Just the fact that it was such a pivotal period for you.
Gordo Byrn (37:11.01)
Yeah, it was good. I think everybody I think everybody that becomes decent at sport will look back and there's going to be a block in their life where they just did a tremendous amount of work. And because I started late, that block fell into my early 30s. Most people that block is going to fall somewhere between 17 and 24, which is where, frankly, if I had done it then.
I would have gotten way faster because you've got a lot of biological advantages in terms of absorbing that training. And Malina used to call it like your internal plumbing. can you change your body or your actually your body, body that it's growing and you're kind of becoming a man or becoming a woman while you're doing all this training. And it gives you a permanent advantage in terms of your physical side.
And I think that if I was laying it out for somebody, I would say, you know, that block. So late teens to mid 20s is where you got to make it happen in terms of getting a lot of work done. The ability to start late and get to a high level isn't there anymore. If you look at the athletes that are at a high level now, they grew up training and they started training like elites relatively well.
we would say very early in their careers. The volume ramp was really significant in their early 20s.
John (38:46.518)
Okay, okay. So one thing that you're known for as well Gordo is just this prolific amount of writing. So you've been writing tremendously for such a long time at this point. So when did that writing habit start?
Gordo Byrn (39:06.781)
17 years old. So that'd that was that'd be like, oh, coming up on 40 years ago. So, yeah. So I've always I've always written a lot and then wrote a bunch in university just for work and stuff. And then I had my job in finance involved, a lot of writing. And then I got into
John (39:13.942)
Wow, okay.
Gordo Byrn (39:33.602)
I was really at the forefront of, because of how old I am, I mean, was like web 1.0, bulletin boards and chat boards. And I was like one of the first people in the sport to have their own website and stuff. And there was this hunger for information. Cause at the same time, triathlon, if we think about the history of Ironman, Ironman had this explosive growth across the late nineties and then, you know, early two thousands.
And I just kind of rode that with my writing and people were trying to figure out how to do these events. And I wrote a book with Joe Friel about how to train for Iron Man. And it just kind of took off. And I've always enjoyed writing because it helps me think if in order to write about a subject, you kind of have to have your thoughts in order. And if you don't have your thoughts in order, it'll become apparent to you when you try and write about it, because you won't be able to put a coherent
article together and then you won't be able to take those articles and turn it into a coherent chapter. And so I've just used it. I've always used it to think and really to to kind of convince myself of stuff too. So a lot of the things that you'll you may read that I'm writing is sort of general advice is really advice to myself and working through issues. And that's more on my true wealth publication, which is about sort of family and finances and stuff. And then on the
on the endurance side. At this stage, I have a pretty good grasp of what works, what doesn't work. But it's still fun to share and teach and help people achieve their goals and make fewer mistakes. And I think that is a key aspect of what a good coach should be bringing to you is pointing out errors or opportunities in a way where you're motivated to change.
approach, not change everything, because odds are you don't need to change everything. Hardly anybody needs to you know, make significant changes. But a few small changes at the right time can be very productive in terms of your overall performance. And working with people on that is a lot of fun. And so that's really kind of where the writings come from. It's, you know, I think you'll hear people say,
Gordo Byrn (41:53.634)
There are noticed things that you find easy to do that other people find difficult. And writing is something that I find relatively easy to do at this stage. I mean, I've just written so much over so many years. And then once you've identified that, put a lot of effort into it. So then work hard because it's easy to do a bunch of articles and write blogs because they're short.
but it's much more challenging to take all of that and then put it into a book, a real product that start to finish can really help somebody. And that can be transformative. Those projects are always really tough work for me to get over the line. But when they're done, you've got something that can really have an impact on somebody, which is a lot of fun. Meeting people who read something you wrote, a book you wrote or an article you wrote, and then they used it in their life.
They got better, their life got better, and then they circle back to you and say, hey man, that thing that you put out there really helped me. And that's a good feeling.
John (43:02.55)
Yeah, yeah. And I've certainly had that experience from reading your writing, Gordo. I remember last year as I was developing as a runner, one thing that you wrote about was how to gradually add a long run. And you talked about this simple process for adding, know, essentially 15 minutes a week. And it was a very practical algorithm. I, you know, that really impacted me. And I just tried to follow that and made a lot of progress. So I'm one of those people who have benefited from your writing. I'm curious to dig,
dive more into this habit of writing. So at this point, are you actively scheduling time for your writing or is it just so ingrained that you just naturally gravitate to the computer and are able to write each day? Like what does that writing habit look like for you?
Gordo Byrn (43:48.49)
Okay, so it depends on, I would say to somebody that wanted to start a writing habit to set a schedule. And I think the first time I ever really wrote consistently was when there's this, there's a book called The Artist's Way that has just a simple program where you write three pages every morning. They just call it the morning pages. And I did that program and it's over a number of weeks. And I did that summer I talked about.
when I took two months off, I started the program in Hong Kong. I finished it off when I was in Boulder. And by the end of the summer, I kind of knew what I wanted to do. That was the benefit of this journaling process. But it's a little bit different if you want to kind of, guess, become a writer or something. And then what I would say is you got to you're going to have to write a lot. And I would try and figure out
a schedule and my advice to somebody is if you were launching a publication or a blog would be published Monday, Wednesday, Friday and you're going to and you're going to write a lot of stuff and see what connects pay attention to what connects to people. One of the neat things with I used to write a lot on say bulletin boards and then I guess the equivalent might be Facebook.
Maybe that's what bulletin boards kind of became, but Facebook now is a little bit different. There's just kind of a lot of noise and drama and things like that. But the interaction. So right in a forum where you feel like you can get the interaction, actually feel, although my writing reaches way more people now than it did say 25 years ago, the reach is incredible. But the interaction.
isn't is actually a bit less. So I still get the interaction, but it's not as much as, the early days of Web 1.0, where I felt like I got a lot more interaction. That's something I've kind of been thinking about. how could I get a bit more interaction with people? Because now we've got this incredible reach with everything. But I think part of it is people have so much stuff coming in. Maybe you're not. Maybe they just don't interact as much. So this
John (46:00.701)
and
Gordo Byrn (46:12.846)
because I felt like in the early days of Web 1.0, did have these online communities and they were kind of niche and they were great. And that's something that I'd like to build up again is an online, some sort of online community where you can help people. And I think coaching is good for that too, because the combination of writing and coaching was great because you're constantly doing all these little case studies.
with your team and with your athletes. So you're learning from that. And those and the things that are popping up for your athletes are popping up for everybody in the sport. So you're being reminded of these issues. And so you have a nonstop stream of things to write about because we're all facing the same stuff in our sport. And so that was a great source. So for me, when I was running, when I was coaching sort of
I had a period of my life where I was coaching full time. So was like my number one thing. I'm making making decent money off it and I would pay the money out actually to my wife's bank account every month. So I didn't spend it on something like, you know, team uniforms or something like that. We would just get the cash out of the business so that we didn't. And it was a really good discipline so that the business didn't become a lifestyle business, which I think is tempting. I think for people that where the coaching is a side business from their other job.
is whatever cash builds up just kind of gets spent. I really was disciplined with myself. Just kind of actually, we're going to run this as a business now. Part of the reason is I kind of had to because I had a period in my life where the consulting went away and we had to generate some cash. And I think that is a great way to go about it. And then something I noticed, so I used to have a single blog and it would have everything, all my different interests in that single blog.
But when I shifted over to Substack, I split things. And the area that I am most popular in is the endurance sport area. And that's where I connect to people the best. And that publication has done great. But the area where I actually think I could change your life is my other publication, which is called True Wealth. But maybe that style of writing
John (48:22.294)
Mm-hmm.
John (48:31.605)
Thank
Gordo Byrn (48:40.218)
or those topics is more crowded perhaps. And although it's been very helpful to me and worth, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, depending on who I've been working with, worth a lot of money, it doesn't seem to get the same amount of traffic as that endurance writing does. And that's another lesson, is that if you want to be a writer,
you can you I write for myself, but also if you if you want to help people, you should pay attention to where it's resonating because helping people. So one of the first things I wanted to do when I started writing was reach people and help them with my writing. That was a very powerful goal 25 years ago. And if that is a goal for someone listening to this, then pay attention to what resonates because
You know, we don't necessarily always, I don't necessarily know where my best value is in the writing. And the market will tell you that. The market will tell you where you have a unique offering because people will start paying attention to that offering. And on the endurance board, I really do have a lot of experience and ability to distill complex information into ways that people can understand relatively straightforward.
John (50:04.854)
Yeah. Well, one thing that stands out to me, Gordo, is this entrepreneurial impulse that you've had as you've been engaging in endurance. So you've started the training camp business, you started the coaching business, you're also very involved in these early forums as well. What's been your favorite business to run from an endurance perspective? Or what have you learned from these various businesses?
Gordo Byrn (50:29.172)
okay. Well, the best business I was ever in was private equity. and that's got to do with the terms of the business and sort of the economics of that business. That's a great business to be in on, on the coaching side. I think, if you're thinking about being a coach, you need to be thinking about your demographic. And what do I mean by that? mean, actually did a talk for USA triathlon about the business coaching. So triathlon.
John (50:34.836)
Okay.
Gordo Byrn (50:58.53)
has a great demographic. think the, you know, golf has a great demographic in terms of the sorts of people you're going to be working with and the money that's available to them and the fact that you are connected to one of the most enjoyable parts of their day. And so it's just a great, it's a great business to be in. Now,
On the flip side is there's a challenge with you only have so many hours in the day and the sort of people that you're going to be working with in the demographic are going to expect you to be very professional and they'll have very high standards. So it can be a very nice niche consulting business with 12 to 15 relationships. And I think that that can work great for everybody. You'll enjoy it. You'll
the clients and the team, the whole thing. It's going to be fun. If you want to scale it, then you're going to need to think almost like you're running a club. So the people that I've seen who've actually been able to make significant amount of money from sport have in effect created a large club and they are the head coach of that club. And that is a very different
skill set. That's and I never really built. We had a large team for a period of time, but we knew our team. We ran it kind of like a real estate business where it's sort of each coach is an associated office and we were kind of pooling our resources for all the back office stuff, the accounting, the billing and all that, because it was way easier than running it ourselves. But if you're the club, it's like the whole thing is one company and
then it's a much different structure. So that's something to think about, sort of how are you going to set it up? Is it going to be your main thing? The other thing is there are certain sports and certain parts of the world where people will not pay for coaching, or if they do pay, they're not going to pay very much. So if you happen to be in a country where people don't pay much for coaching or you're in a sport where they don't pay much for coaching, then it's going to be very difficult to make
John (53:10.891)
Hmm.
Gordo Byrn (53:24.174)
a living from it. So you're going to need something else. And then your coaching is really just going to be something for a passion, something that you do. And one of my mentors, John Hellemans, who's my writing partner, you know, he was a medical doctor, a sports doc, and he's always done coaching. I mean, he made a little bit of money from coaching, but it was never his main thing. His main thing was being a doctor, a community doctor, a sports doc, and working in the community.
And coaching was really a branch of his motto, is, you know, exercise is medicine. And so was really just a spin off from the overall approach he took to being a doctor, which is this act of health, active life. So I think you need to really go in with the understanding where you want to get to and understanding what you want.
out of the business and be very clear about it in terms of, know, look, how much time do I want to bring to this? What am I going to need to earn for my time? Is that feasible? And then the market will tell you if it's feasible or not feasible. So, you know, I started coaching people. I was still working in finance. So I was really just coaching people to kind of learn and people just asked me to like lay out a program for them. And I just started with that. And then it kind of built.
John (54:38.87)
you
Gordo Byrn (54:51.032)
from that over the years.
John (54:53.918)
Amazing, Now, one thing I want to talk to you about Gordo is attention. So you've seen the development of the internet and writing on the internet from 1.0 all the way up to the modern age. So how have you managed to protect your attention in this modern social media driven world?
Gordo Byrn (55:09.004)
Yeah.
Gordo Byrn (55:17.006)
Yeah, I think you have to actively curate your life. it started. did a training camp where we rode the length of New Zealand and it was 15 days. We started at the top. went all the way down swim, bike, run. We didn't swim the channel cook straight. We took a ferry, but we did every everything the whole way other than the cook straight. And I got back from that and I have 1500 emails.
waiting for me and I was like, wow, things need to change because this is not sustainable and I do not, it made me realize how much time that I was spending on email that I hadn't realized before because you know, it just kind of, just kind of happens. So I looked around, I found something called inbox zero and that changed the way I approach my email, but then it
That approach also changed how I do everything in my life. So it's sort of like, do it now, delete it. In other words, you're just not gonna deal with it. Schedule it, if it's gonna take time and you're gonna need to think, just put it in your calendar, schedule it or archive it and if it comes back, it comes back. you basically, most of your life is triage. You're just dealing with stuff all the time and then you have blocks where you're gonna be working and it's much better way.
to do stuff. So that's one way. So you got to reduce the fire hose. you got to, and unsubscribe is the easiest way to do that. The other thing you can do is you can block and mute people that are angry all the time and, or for whatever reason, if you're getting like triggers or somebody just decides that they want to hassle you, it's just like one striking, you're out. Just delete them and move on. There's people in my life that I will make an effort to figure out what they're talking about.
You know, obviously, you know, my family, my wife, my close friends. But if some stranger wants to get into it with me, it's like, no, you know, it's OK. I mean, you know, we're just going to move on. I don't need to deal with that particular thing. And I think to have the discipline to do that is something you can develop over time. I think you really need to build that. So.
John (57:41.77)
Thank
Gordo Byrn (57:43.768)
There's a book called The Courage to be Disliked. That's probably a good read on that. But also it's just learning and deciding who you're there for. You know, who who am I there for? Who am I writing for? I am writing for people who have the ability to apply what I write and get benefit from it. If somebody doesn't kind of fall into that category, well, that's OK. But, you know, maybe that's maybe we don't need to work that out. The other thing is
And this is benefit of maybe being a bit older is that you come to the realization that at the end of your life, there will be some things that you haven't worked out in your life and you accept that. And then you can bring that realization to any situation. And you're like, you know, well, maybe this particular situation, this conflict, I am not going to be able to figure this out. And so I'm just going to have to wait. And you do it politely. You don't need to like
burn the bridge down or anything like that. You just like, well, you know, we might not be able to work this out. And then with the benefit of time, you know, sometimes things do work out and then pay attention as well where things work out and you had nothing to do with it. And that's that's many situations where my involvement isn't necessary for a resolution. And sometimes I needed to notice, and this is a good coaching tip too. If you're a coach, there are some people where you're not the right coach, regardless of your method.
John (58:58.431)
Hmm.
Gordo Byrn (59:12.91)
I've had coaches that sent me to other people to tell me the same thing in a different way and it got through. And I was grateful to them that they did that because I needed to hear that and I needed to sort of change my approach. But for whatever reason, we were in this pattern where it wasn't going to work out, sent me to somebody else. That guy got through and it was great. So I think all of these different things that you learn are really helpful. But in terms of
organizing. I think you can, if somebody is not used to that, the easiest thing you're going to need to do is what I did when I wrote my first book was I put myself in a Starbucks with, with, and I wasn't online and it was simple. I couldn't leave the Starbucks until I had a draft of the chapter that I was working on for that day. End of story. You got a draft, you can go home, but until you've got the draft, you can't leave the room.
Now it's kind of different. I'm not as hardcore on myself. I don't do it in a day. What I did for my most recent book to get it over the line was I did, I set dates and there was say anywhere from seven to 14 days between the dates and I put deadlines on myself and that's a good discipline for writing or really for anything.
John (01:00:36.852)
you
Gordo Byrn (01:00:37.678)
And if you find you're kind of blowing a lot of time in low productive areas, well then you just got to block out things in your schedule to do productive stuff. And that's really, we're applying the same principle of the basic week where we have these blocks for training with whatever we want to do. Blocks for practicing a musical instrument, blocks for writing, blocks for whatever it might be. Just schedule it.
And so if you want to get it done, you schedule it. And when it's scheduled, that's what you're doing until it's done. And then you can go on to the next thing.
John (01:01:13.832)
Okay, okay. And another side of this, there does seem to be this big dopamine component to the modern internet as well. So definitely, you know, all of the likes on Twitter, I imagine all of the numbers that you're seeing on your sub stack, you know, this constant potential for scrolling more and finding more information. How have you managed to not get sucked into that dopamine aspect of Gordo? Because this is something that a lot of people struggle with, but it seems like you've avoided that for the most part.
So curious how you've managed that.
Gordo Byrn (01:01:44.629)
Well, yeah, you don't want to be famous. I think that that's Tim Ferriss has a blog that you should go. If somebody that wants to be famous should probably go read Tim's blog on being famous. It's better to be connected, to be able to exhibit mastery, to connect.
John (01:01:51.51)
Okay.
Gordo Byrn (01:02:14.03)
to be able to help people, to feel loved, to get a hug from your kid. These are things that you really want. And the benefit of being highly successful in different fields is that you learn that they don't provide any, there's no long-term meaning in it. In other words, I tell people and they don't believe me, but I'm like, there's nothing at the finish line. There's nothing there. There is nothing, this sub three marathon that you think is gonna change your life. There's nothing there.
And then once you do the sub three, you're to want to go sub 250. There's nothing there. Once you do sub 250, you're going to want to do it off the bike. There's nothing there. And maybe you want to make a million dollars. You think that's going to change your life? No, nothing there. It's going to buy you some time, but then you got the problem of what to do with that time. And I think it's you just need to learn these lessons or you need to pay attention to it.
John (01:02:53.526)
Mm.
Gordo Byrn (01:03:12.652)
And that's why I encourage people to write stuff down. Write down what your goals are. Like, like just one to 10. Write down these things. What do you need more of? Why do you need more? But I think the first thing is like, just be aware of what your values are. What do I think I need? I need more attention. I need more likes. If whatever, I mean, if that's what you think it is, then get it and pay attention. Our thing is, is it better for you?
Now, for some people, it is better. I have friends that really enjoy the attention side of it. And so for them, it is better. And so it makes sense for them to kind of track down. But if you're somebody where it's like, hmm, turns out that wasn't it, well, then maybe you got to pay attention. You got to like look in another area. And when you find that, write it down and you'll you know, I discovered fortunately quite young that actually what I like to do is I like to, you know, get up, exercise.
you know, do some writing, read a book and have a relatively simple life. And that's what it is for me. And so I need to focus on that. And I think a lot of folks don't write it down and make clear, make it clear to themselves and they can kind of get distracted. And then they just pick up what everybody else thinks that they should be doing this collective. So yeah, likes are good or, you know, more of anything is good.
And you have to kind of figure that out for yourself. Well, actually, no, this is how I want to my life and it's okay. And your life doesn't need to make sense to anybody else. And something we say in our marriage, my wife and I, is our marriage doesn't need to make sense to anybody else. It's our relationship. And if it works for us, that's enough. And it's a very powerful thing. You can free yourself from a lot of wasted time. Once you realize that you can just focus on what you want to be doing.
John (01:04:55.19)
Hmm.
Gordo Byrn (01:05:07.406)
or what the marriage wants to be doing. I kind of tend to view the marriage as like a single entity. To make a marriage work, you kind of have to view it. You really have to take that view of, well, we are taking these two individuals and we're committing to be a partnership for the rest of our lives. And so you need to be thinking, all right, that's one of those filters. What's this going to do to the marriage? And I think that's a great filter to have, particularly in the early years when you're trying to learn how to be married, you know, learning how to be a spouse.
John (01:05:11.861)
Mm-hmm.
Gordo Byrn (01:05:36.718)
I think there's a lot of us didn't have examples of that growing up, how to be a spouse, and we need to figure it out for ourselves.
John (01:05:45.75)
Okay, All right, last couple of questions, Cordo. So one thing you've said is that living an open life is extremely empowering. So I was wondering if you could elaborate on that.
Gordo Byrn (01:05:58.156)
Yeah. Secrets drain a lot of energy and you need that energy to do productive stuff. If you want to do difficult things and challenge yourself and improve yourself, you're going to need all your energy to do it. And energy is finite, even when you're 19 years old. I mean, you you can, you got a ton of it, but that period is just a period. And then you're going to need to come up with
be being smarter. And so I think living an open life and being a relatively open book doesn't mean you have to talk about everything. I mean, you want to be talking about your sex life and all this other stuff, but being, living the way you appear, I think, just saves energy and it reduces anxiety. And I think that, is really beneficial as, for everybody, but
really as an athlete because we are at a top athlete because you really do need that extra energy to recover from your training. And when it gets difficult, if you aren't aligned, and this is really what integrity is about, being aligned in the different aspects of our lives, things will kind of go a bit nuts on you. And because being really tired and training is quite challenging mentally and it can break you down.
And so you want to make your character as solid as possible. just, you know, being the way you appear to be is one way to do that.
John (01:07:37.302)
Okay, okay. All right, final question, Gordo. What is on the frontier of your attention right now or what is really capturing your curiosity?
Gordo Byrn (01:07:48.686)
Well, those are just kind of two separate things. So Frontier of my attention is July 6th is Challenge Roth. It's my first Ironman in a long time. So I'm trying to figure out, trying to get myself in really good shape so that can do a decent Ironman. And it's very different because I have a lot more constraints on me given that I have a 56 year old body. So that's something. In terms of things that
John (01:07:59.478)
Mm-hmm.
Gordo Byrn (01:08:18.548)
interest me. The we over the next so our youngest just graduated grade six. So in six years we will be empty nesters. And if somebody is young listening to this they will think six years is quite a bit of time. But I know that actually six years is going to come because I've watched my kids go from
zero in terms of zero kids to like three kids and I've kind of watched them grow up. And our first is only two years away from heading off to college. So five years is enough time to sort of dramatically change everything about your life. It's and six years is basically I like to think in thousand day cycles. So six years is two thousand day cycles and we're going to be empty nesters. I'm going to be in my early 60s.
and my life is going to start being very different. I consider that kind of around 60 to be kind of a turning point for exiting middle age. That's probably a less emotional way for the older people to hear it. I actually in private, I might say it's the start of being old, but a lot of people get triggered by that. So we can just say you're exiting middle age for the people listening. But my life's going to be different. So the question is, okay,
John (01:09:38.358)
you
Gordo Byrn (01:09:43.854)
How do we want our life to be? My wife's about eight years younger than me. So I'll be kind of going into that a little ahead of her. But we will need to figure out, all right, well, what do we want to do? How do our lives want to be? And with a bit of planning, we can make that transition a little bit smoother. So thinking through that, maybe learning about that. And then in between those two points is going to be my 60th birthday. And it is a lot of fun when you age up. And so on my mind,
And something I'm curious about is I look at my physiology now and I look at the physiology of the best 60 year old triathletes of all time. I've been studying it and I think it's possible to go a lot faster. So the question, how fast can a six year old man go is something that's on my mind and it's something that's really fun to build towards. And so that is a topic that is
really interesting to me. And so I do all kinds of reading and testing and writing about it trying to figure out, okay, so what are the components that I can put together? Because it's not about the same thing every week, every year. You actually, you think about it in terms of an Olympic cycle and what are the components I need to peak four years out for my next Olympics, which would be kind of aging up into that 60 age group.
And so it's really fun. You touched on something that's actually very important that people should pay attention to, which is maintaining muscle mass. I think much of the decline in VO2 max for many people is not maintaining that muscle mass. So there may be some elements of the quality perhaps of the muscle changing, although I'm not convinced. think most the changes
There are some central changes that I've seen documented in terms of how the heart and our cardiovascular system changes over time as we age. There's some of that, but I also think there's a big component of getting weaker and losing the quality, losing the lean body mass. so maintaining that for as long as we can is something that we can do if athletic performance is important to us. And it is very important to me. So those are, I guess those are kind of like,
Gordo Byrn (01:12:08.896)
If you like short term, medium term and long term things that are on my radar that I pay attention to.
John (01:12:15.68)
So good, so good. Well, Gordo, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. You are an absolute wealth of wisdom. I feel like every time I read part of your writing, it is time well spent. It's time that is productive. And I would encourage everyone listening to check out those two newsletters. So you got Endurance Essentials, and you've also got True Wealth, both on Substack. They're both fantastic. Gordo, thanks so much for being here.
Gordo Byrn (01:12:28.386)
Okay.
Gordo Byrn (01:12:39.576)
Yeah. Thanks.
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